In another case that seems more about principle and political posturing than any real purpose, the United States District Court Southern District of Florida yesterday (September 14) issued a stay on a new law essentially prohibiting doctors from asking patients about gun ownership.
Seriously, is this really an issue anywhere? Especially since the law was already riddled with loopholes allowing doctors to bring up the subject if they had reason to suspect somebody was going to come to harm. Or, for that matter, if asking about guns was “necessary” — a very nebulous qualification which, according to the court order issuing the injunction, seems to be interpreted differently by both sides.
Yes. They’ve also asked if I wear seat belts, drink alcohol or use drugs. They’ve also asked my child if I spank her and whether she went to school when she was obviously old enough to be in school. It all just smacks of “big brotherism”. Who are they gathering these data for, anyway?
A doctor has a responsibility to evaluate a number of different risk factors. A child who is not going to school is not getting daily attention from an unrelated adult, for instance, so the doctor would know to be on the lookout for socialization issues, abuse, and developmental delays.
There’s more to healthcare than just taking your temperature and running a few blood tests.
Actually, I misspoke. What I MEANT was that the charts that the data go into are HIPAA-protected. They’re collecting that data for you, and to know how to best serve you and your health, and your family and your family’s health.
Yes, there is a link. My child won’t die from my non-existent gun accidentally going off. However, if I own a gun, there is the possibility that my child will get a hold of the gun and start playing with it, fire while cleaning it, etc. The doctor can ask if the gun is properly locked away, stored, no ammo, etc.
Now, that being said, if I own a gun and improperly store it, I’m unlikely to tell someone about that.
And, my child’s pediatrician has never asked if I own a gun.
My first reply was meant for Powers, so I obviously hit the wrong button. Anyway, to Julie, sure a child can’t die from a non-existent gun going off. However, a child could die from an intruder entering the home and the family has a non-existent gun. Just guessing here but I bet more children drown in bathtubs and pools than by playing with the gun of an irresponsible owner. Should doctors ask if you have a pool? The bottom line is you have to be a responsible parent, and in my opinion it’s not a doctor’s place to decide if a household is more dangerous with a gun or less dangerous. If they see signs of abuse or any reasons to think a child is not being properly cared for, then by all means it should be reported. But leave the opinions on gun control out of the office.
No link to gun ownership by itself, but certainly a link between child health and responsible gun ownership. Presumably if the answer to “do you own a gun” is yes, the followup question is whether the gun is stored where the child can’t get to it.
I’d expect the same followup question if the initial question is about alcohol or chainsaws or cleaning products.
It is an infringement of free speech that won’t stand.
To survive court scrutiny, a law that restricts speech must be narrowly tailored to a state’s compelling interest. This law fails on both counts. If there’s a compelling interest of the state here, I don’t see it. As for the narrow tailoring, you can get the same result without restricting speech, by making a law that permits a person to decline to answer when asked by a doctor about gun ownership… which, hmm, is already the law.
Plus, why stop at doctors? Why not stop anyone who isn’t a law enforcement officer from asking another person if they own a gun?
Yup, I’ve been asked as part of my yearly checkup.
Doctors are responsible for helping their patients take care of their health, and part of that is explaining the most effective lifestyle changes you can make that actually make a difference in your long-term health:
They include, in approximate order:
1) wearing a seatbelt when in a car, and wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle or bicycle
2) not smoking
3) not binge-drinking, and, if you do, making certain not to drive
4) diet and exercise
5) not being sexually promiscuous, or, if you are, using condoms, a
6) either not owning a gun, or making certain that you understand gun safety, keep your firearms in a gun safe, and/or use trigger locks.
Among teenagers, another VERY major health-enhancer is letting them know that they are not alone, and that, if their life sucks, it will get better — suicide is a MAJOR cause of death among teenagers and young adults.
Other interventions I’ve had suggested to me include making sure to have a flu shot, and generally making sure that my immunizations are up to date, and making sure to have a dental checkup periodically, ideally twice a year.
See, in the United States, the primary way that people die is, well, old age — there ARE teenage athletes who have heart attacks, thirty-year-olds who have strokes, and eight-year-olds with leukemia, but the vast majority of those who are killed by cardiac events, neurological insults, and malignancies are elderly, and, back before they did away with “old age” as a cause of death, would have been listed as “old age.”
What’s next after old age? Accidents. Accidents cause the vast majority of untimely deaths, and significant medical problems. And there are things that can be done to at least MINIMIZE the chances of such things, although not eliminate them. Cars are the most dangerous things, of course, and bathtubs can be a problem, but firearm accidents are in the top twenty. I mean, orders of magnitude less than cars, of course, but they’re up there. A doctor DOES have a responsibility to check that his or her patients who own firearms have had an NRA-certified gun safety class, and, if they haven’t, to STRONGLY suggest it.
So, yes. I’ve never had a doctor tell me NOT to have promiscuous sex, own a firearm, or drink to excess, but they certainly have explained to me what the statistical risks are, and what I can do to minimize them.
James, you said “Plus, why stop at doctors? Why not stop anyone who isn’t a law enforcement officer from asking another person if they own a gun?”
Really, why the law enforcement officers exception? Why not stop Anyone from asking, regardless of law? If the officer is asking, then either it’s obvióus or irrelevant.
Law enforcement officers are allowed to ask if a person they come in contact has a weapon on their person or within reach. In fact, the courts have determined that a search of a detained person, and everything in their reach and control, to locate weapons is reasonable even without a warrant.
Also, if they arrest someone, and that person owns a gun but wasn’t carrying it at the time of arrest, it might need to be secured to prevent it from getting in the hands of someone not qualified to possess it.
Mostly, though, people like parole officers need to check up on people who are on parole and thus not permitted to own or possess firearms as a result of their parole or felon status. They ask questions that are normally considered nosy, like “when was the last time you had a drink?” and “who do you live with?” and “where do you work?” that ordinary citizens are allowed to answer “none of your business” but parolees are required to answer.
Bill the medical community isn’t invoking the Fourteenth Amendment just for good measure. That invocation changes their case from hopeless to (probably) a slam dunk, because the First Amendment doesn’t apply to the states by itself. It only applies to the state via the Fourteenth Amendment.
Incidentally, I’d be surprised if they were actually relying on the “privileges and immunities” clause. That would make sense from the text, but for historical reasons, they’re almost certainly citing the due process clause.
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In another case that seems more about principle and political posturing than any real purpose, the United States District Court Southern District of Florida yesterday (September 14) issued a stay on a new law essentially prohibiting doctors from asking patients about gun ownership.
Yes. They’ve also asked if I wear seat belts, drink alcohol or use drugs. They’ve also asked my child if I spank her and whether she went to school when she was obviously old enough to be in school. It all just smacks of “big brotherism”. Who are they gathering these data for, anyway?
A doctor has a responsibility to evaluate a number of different risk factors. A child who is not going to school is not getting daily attention from an unrelated adult, for instance, so the doctor would know to be on the lookout for socialization issues, abuse, and developmental delays.
There’s more to healthcare than just taking your temperature and running a few blood tests.
They’re not gathering the data for anybody. The answers to those questions don’t go into the charts, generally.
Actually, I misspoke. What I MEANT was that the charts that the data go into are HIPAA-protected. They’re collecting that data for you, and to know how to best serve you and your health, and your family and your family’s health.
The alcohol and drug usage are legimate health questions. Some prescription drugs interact with these substances.
And it’s *this* data, not *these* data. (Yes, “data” is plural, but it’s treated like a singular noun.)
Not properly, it isn’t.
Okay, but what does that have to do with gun ownership? Is there supposedly a link between gun ownership and a child’s health?
Yes, there is a link. My child won’t die from my non-existent gun accidentally going off. However, if I own a gun, there is the possibility that my child will get a hold of the gun and start playing with it, fire while cleaning it, etc. The doctor can ask if the gun is properly locked away, stored, no ammo, etc.
Now, that being said, if I own a gun and improperly store it, I’m unlikely to tell someone about that.
And, my child’s pediatrician has never asked if I own a gun.
My first reply was meant for Powers, so I obviously hit the wrong button. Anyway, to Julie, sure a child can’t die from a non-existent gun going off. However, a child could die from an intruder entering the home and the family has a non-existent gun. Just guessing here but I bet more children drown in bathtubs and pools than by playing with the gun of an irresponsible owner. Should doctors ask if you have a pool? The bottom line is you have to be a responsible parent, and in my opinion it’s not a doctor’s place to decide if a household is more dangerous with a gun or less dangerous. If they see signs of abuse or any reasons to think a child is not being properly cared for, then by all means it should be reported. But leave the opinions on gun control out of the office.
No link to gun ownership by itself, but certainly a link between child health and responsible gun ownership. Presumably if the answer to “do you own a gun” is yes, the followup question is whether the gun is stored where the child can’t get to it.
I’d expect the same followup question if the initial question is about alcohol or chainsaws or cleaning products.
It is an infringement of free speech that won’t stand.
To survive court scrutiny, a law that restricts speech must be narrowly tailored to a state’s compelling interest. This law fails on both counts. If there’s a compelling interest of the state here, I don’t see it. As for the narrow tailoring, you can get the same result without restricting speech, by making a law that permits a person to decline to answer when asked by a doctor about gun ownership… which, hmm, is already the law.
Plus, why stop at doctors? Why not stop anyone who isn’t a law enforcement officer from asking another person if they own a gun?
What’s the problem? They can ask; we don’t have to tell.
Yup, I’ve been asked as part of my yearly checkup.
Doctors are responsible for helping their patients take care of their health, and part of that is explaining the most effective lifestyle changes you can make that actually make a difference in your long-term health:
They include, in approximate order:
1) wearing a seatbelt when in a car, and wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle or bicycle
2) not smoking
3) not binge-drinking, and, if you do, making certain not to drive
4) diet and exercise
5) not being sexually promiscuous, or, if you are, using condoms, a
6) either not owning a gun, or making certain that you understand gun safety, keep your firearms in a gun safe, and/or use trigger locks.
Among teenagers, another VERY major health-enhancer is letting them know that they are not alone, and that, if their life sucks, it will get better — suicide is a MAJOR cause of death among teenagers and young adults.
Other interventions I’ve had suggested to me include making sure to have a flu shot, and generally making sure that my immunizations are up to date, and making sure to have a dental checkup periodically, ideally twice a year.
See, in the United States, the primary way that people die is, well, old age — there ARE teenage athletes who have heart attacks, thirty-year-olds who have strokes, and eight-year-olds with leukemia, but the vast majority of those who are killed by cardiac events, neurological insults, and malignancies are elderly, and, back before they did away with “old age” as a cause of death, would have been listed as “old age.”
What’s next after old age? Accidents. Accidents cause the vast majority of untimely deaths, and significant medical problems. And there are things that can be done to at least MINIMIZE the chances of such things, although not eliminate them. Cars are the most dangerous things, of course, and bathtubs can be a problem, but firearm accidents are in the top twenty. I mean, orders of magnitude less than cars, of course, but they’re up there. A doctor DOES have a responsibility to check that his or her patients who own firearms have had an NRA-certified gun safety class, and, if they haven’t, to STRONGLY suggest it.
So, yes. I’ve never had a doctor tell me NOT to have promiscuous sex, own a firearm, or drink to excess, but they certainly have explained to me what the statistical risks are, and what I can do to minimize them.
James, you said “Plus, why stop at doctors? Why not stop anyone who isn’t a law enforcement officer from asking another person if they own a gun?”
Really, why the law enforcement officers exception? Why not stop Anyone from asking, regardless of law? If the officer is asking, then either it’s obvióus or irrelevant.
Law enforcement officers are allowed to ask if a person they come in contact has a weapon on their person or within reach. In fact, the courts have determined that a search of a detained person, and everything in their reach and control, to locate weapons is reasonable even without a warrant.
Also, if they arrest someone, and that person owns a gun but wasn’t carrying it at the time of arrest, it might need to be secured to prevent it from getting in the hands of someone not qualified to possess it.
Mostly, though, people like parole officers need to check up on people who are on parole and thus not permitted to own or possess firearms as a result of their parole or felon status. They ask questions that are normally considered nosy, like “when was the last time you had a drink?” and “who do you live with?” and “where do you work?” that ordinary citizens are allowed to answer “none of your business” but parolees are required to answer.
Bill the medical community isn’t invoking the Fourteenth Amendment just for good measure. That invocation changes their case from hopeless to (probably) a slam dunk, because the First Amendment doesn’t apply to the states by itself. It only applies to the state via the Fourteenth Amendment.
Incidentally, I’d be surprised if they were actually relying on the “privileges and immunities” clause. That would make sense from the text, but for historical reasons, they’re almost certainly citing the due process clause.
Okay. The written decision doesn’t specify, but that sounds as good an explanation than any other. Way better than most, in fact.
I just want to know why so much of the text goes red when I mouse over it.
Easy. Whoever encoded the webpage wanted the link to turn red if you moused over it, and forgot to close the mouseover at the end of the link.
Close. An extra openbracket-a-closebracket snuck in there, so the “red” was your mouse looking for a hyperlink that wasn’t there.